All Saints

Wish I could have been there!

I have a lot of questions about guest choirs for a parish eucharistic liturgy.

What's the liturgical assumptions and thinking that makes this a good idea?

How much of the sung prayer that is proper to the assembly was accessible in a mode other than listening?

Splendid!

Thanks, Don Marco.

Hey, Maureen, according to the Second Vatican Council and to the documents on liturgy and sacred music, paricipation is primarily interior. And Yes, the Congregation sang the Kyrie, The Gloria, the Credo, and the Sanctus. And you should have heard the singing on "For All The Saints." And all the comments have been overwhelmingly positive for days. The people felt themselves drawn in by such beauty.

Sounds great! Was your choir involved in any way?

Maureen,
The sung prayer that is proper to the assembly in a Latin Novus Ordo Mass can include not only the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, and Pater Noster, but also the responses to the Ordo, such as "et cum Spiritu tuo" and "habemus ad Dominum." As a member of the assembly, these are your parts. They're not difficult, just unfamiliar these days. Music directors, please teach them! Assemblies, please claim them! At our Novus Ordo Masses, the assembly sings the roof off!

Thank you, Father! It was beautiful just reading about it!

P.S. Having read the other comments, I want to weigh in. My mother came into full communion with the Church from Methodism and though she would never go back, one of the things she misses most is the singing - she is sad about the poor congregational singing in Catholic parishes (such as ours) that pride themselves on their "modern" and "up-to-date" music that is supposed to appeal to the people.

Most of the people in our parish participate primarily by listening, at least as far as the singing goes; when syrupy "contemporary" Mass parts are trotted out, many of the men participate by listening with their arms folded across their chests. However, let a priest or choir break out a Gregorian alleluia, Agnus Dei, solemn dismissal, or something along those lines, and then young and old sing with gusto. And let me be clear that this is not by any means a "conservative" parish. The story is much the same at my university Newman Center.

Sorry, I didn't pick up on the fact that this was a "novus Ordo" Latin Mass...assuming the parish has secured permission for such Masses on solemnities.

I guess I assumed that since the Eucharistic prayer was in English and the readings were in a variety of languages that it was what is usually called a "multiculural" Mass with chant in Latin, in light of the desire of Vatican II to keep this heritage alive.

If this was the parish's primary celebration of All Saints, a holy day of obligation, then I think the needs and abilities of the parishioners should be considered.

And Father Jeff, with all due respect, I don't find the word interior in the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. "full active participation" "devout and active participation" may have several interpretations, but see the following short quotes from SC -- who's your source for your interpretation?

from 114 and 118 in SC:

114. The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. Choirs must be diligently promoted, especially in cathedral churches; but bishops and other pastors of souls must be at pains to ensure that, whenever the sacred action is to be celebrated with song, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs...

118. Religious singing by the people is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises, as also during liturgical services, the voices of the faithful may ring out according to the norms and requirements of the rubrics.

The tenor of the comments, of course, reflect the vision of those who feel comfortable visiting and posting here!

This is exactly the kind of liturgy envisioned by Vatican II. It also seems that all of the sung portions of the liturgy proper to the congregation (i.e., the ordinaries) were, in fact, accessible to any parish with competent musical leadership. The propers were beautiful choices, fitting for the worship of God, especially in the Roman Rite. Beautiful.

Hi Maureen,

There is never need for episcopal permission to celebrate the Mass of Paul VI in Latin; the use of Latin is always proper to the Roman Rite.

Not to beat a dead horse, but as one who sang with schola cantorum while it was at the shrine in SF (and who witnessed the capaility of its msuic to empower and uplift both clergy and people), I feel I ought to chime in.

Regardless of whether the participation of the laity is to be interior or manifested in outward expressions, a sad fact has become obivous to me (and to many others of my generation, for whom the "post/pre- Vatican II church" is an utterly meaningless dichotomy).

To wit, the reform of the Mass has thus far--- to put it bluntly--- consisted in the "dumbing"-down of the liturgy. This is so even as the council fathers envisioned an educated, cosmopolitan laity which is worthy of the church's awesome aesthetic heritage.

Please don't think think that what I am saying here is conservative or reactionary. I am hinting at something that is in fact quite progressive. In particular, for the church to truly be catholic, it must draw form the very best that every genration has to offer (i.e. it must be catholic in time as well as space). This is an idea that demands open-midnedness and real liturgical diversity!

The thought of a solemn high mass (1962 missal or Novus Ordo) in a magnificent modern catheddral (like the one in LA ) with a mass setting by a real contemporary master like Arvo Part ( sorry Marty Haugen et al.) , jam-packed with educated laity chanting the responsories... hmm, now there's an image of a church that has caught the true Spirit of Vatican II.